Zitat von
Slaughter
1. Didn't get to their tech level yet, but they're still on datalinks.
Now for a LOT of feedback:
Hey Monaldinho, I’ve been playing, and I wanted to post about some things I noticed, and some suggestions:
About the newly-added Progenitor factions:
1.The Progenitors are not at war with each other, at all. Hell, they’re downright friendly and its common for humans to be buddies with both sides. In fact, the aliens are very friendly to each other. They should be feeling UTTER HATRED at each other and fighting forever and ever, including humans who side with their foe. If my memory serves me right, the Progenitors hate each other’s guts so much they forgot the meaning of “neutral.”
I remember from the expansion that the Caretakers and Usurpers constantly nagged the player (and other factions) about his/her peace with the other side, and if the player didn’t essentially declare immediate war on the other side, they declared war themselves on the player. There was none of this “neutrality” silliness with the Progenitor factions, and there shouldn’t be.
Neutrality subverts the idea of Alien Crossfire – the whole concept of “humans caught up in a war between two alien factions that hate each other for millennia.” I remember sharing a continent with the two aliens was hell, you had to fight off alien hordes from one side or the other, sometimes both because other factions ALSO got angry at the aliens, and sometimes they were strong enough to keep you afraid of them/interested in continuing a alliance.
That ins’t happening so far. I can be buddy with both alien factions at the same time, ok, maybe not buddies with both because its likely my civics/religion offends one or the other, but they don’t insta-fight me if I refuse to insta-fight their hated foes. Hell, in this game I’m playing, Santiago, Domai and even Deirdre nagged me dozens of times to attack Santiago/Domai in their little eternal blood feud, but Conqueror Marr never sent me a message telling me he wants me to stop co-operating with their blood enemies, the Caretakers. Hell, they’re not even fighting each other, Marr actually holds a protectorate over H’minee. There’s so much wrong with the last sentence.
2. Aliens can be offered Planetary Council seats. What the hell? Aliens shouldn’t enter the Planetary Council; it’s a human-only club for many reasons. For starters, any organization that included one or BOTH alien groups would be affected by their non-stop civil war. They’re aliens, they can barely be understood. They have no legitimacy as members of the Council, all who are in some way connected to the Unity. Despite their relative friendliness, both factions’ overall plan ends with a boot stomping on the face of the human race, forever.
Definitively not Planetary Council material, these Progenitors. Perhaps a “Progenitor” council member civic the aliens are always stuck on? Non-member could also work.
3. It’s a pity there’s no atrocities on the game so far, I loved how they encouraged you to be UTTER RUTHLESS fighting the aliens in SMAX. Human x Human and Alien x Alien wars were totally ruthless, with casual use of nerve gas pods, penalty-less base razing and large falls of population occurring at human-alien city transitions. Talk about total war!
4. City-names used by both sets of aliens are repeated. So the Usurpers got a bunch of cities called Courage and the Caretakers got a lot of cities called Decision. I don’t think the Progenitors are supposed to be uncreative
5. Humans shouldn’t be able to talk with the aliens (and vice-versa) without research, like in SMAX. If I remember right, Progenitors had to research Social Psych and humans had to Research Progenitor Psych or something like that. Humans and aliens speaking each other’s languages out of nowhere is silly.
6. The aliens talk normally. Their diplo-talk needs to be changed (IE copied from the original game, with some extra additions) to their weird and creepy “Subject: Answer” sentence structure.
7. I haven’t reached that part of the game, but the Aliens shouldn’t enter the end-game Transcendence/Anti-Transcendence struggle like the human factions. They don’t fit because their aims are self-exclusive and every alien victory always involves a boot stomping on the face of the human race forever, one way or another.
The Caretakers don’t want ANYONE doing any Transcendence, lest it fails, another Flowering happens and their civilization dies once again. The Usurpers want to transcend for themselves, they don’t want any silly humans reaching Godhood before them. Humans want to transcend, or not.* I’m unsure how they would fit in the traditional victory, and there needs to be a way to stop the Aliens from simply being stomped into the ground by the two end-game alliances.
*SMAX hinted Transcendence has the danger of causing untold havoc in the form of a Planetary Flowering, it’s never specified what is it, but it seems to have almost destroyed Progenitor society in the past. Humans finding out from Progenitor data that there’s a immense risk Transcendence will cause untold devastation upon them is a very good reason for the end-game Transcendence struggle. This time, there’s no Unity for humanity to live on. More on that bellow.
Diplomacy:
1. I’m playing as Miriam (Miriam/Fundie/Power/Terraforming/Edenist, heck of a killer anti-planet combo) and I noticed I can’t get a protectorate over anybody because “making peace with your enemies is not possible for you.” I’m pretty sure this is being caused by the fact Cha Dawn is at war with me because I’m the biggest polluter at a whooping -9.74 Planet rating.
This means I got a foe with a eternal (I don’t think anyone will surpass my immense anti-planet rating any day) vendetta against me, and he’s screwing my chances at getting a Protectorate. This could be annoying to any faction that is the biggest polluter (Cha Dawn attacks them until they stop or he dies) or to the aliens once they’re fixed so they’re forever at war with each other. Is there any way to get rid of the “making peace with your enemies is not possible for you” impediment to getting a Protectorate?
2. I noticed one of the resources in the game is oil, though only on oceans. Its cannon there’s no Fossil Fuels in Chiron because the Planetmind’s ecological regulation of Chiron means super-efficient carbon recycling, so the ingredients for oil are never allowed to become oil. So, oil as a resource is cannon-breaking and it shouldn’t be there.
Religion:
1. No way of removing a religion? I find it silly to play factions like Believers or Hive and have no way of removing a religion I don’t like with some sort of, say, Inquisitor unit. Was that a oversight by the Planetfall devs (mwahahahahah, swallow that annoying religious minority, deal with it!), or actually intended?
2. Why are religions still called religions? They don’t seem very religious to me. The only one that includes some sort of worship is the Voice of Planet, and that’s only radicals like Dawn’s crazies who worship Planet as a God. The others don’t worship anything. It would be much more correct to call them Ideologies or Philosophies.
3. Its just me or most factions adopt Voice of Planet? In my current game, 11 factions are Voice of Planet, one is Edenist (me), two follow Ascetic Virtues, one follows Homo Superior and two factions are still unknown. (yes, even in the 2400s, weird). Is that related to the fact there are two Secret Projects (The Concordat and Dawn of Planet) spreading Voice of Planet?
4. There’s some problem I just perceived, involving Religions and Aliens. In my current Miriam game, H’minee follows Ascetic Virtues and Marr follows Voice of Planet. The religions/ideologies as conceived are human constructs. The aliens may have their own equivalents, but the idea of aliens following human ideas is… strange, to say the least.
Should the aliens follow the same religions as humans? Let’s see: Voice of Planet is all about more communication with the Planetmind and respect for the native environment. Seems to fits the Caretakers but they NEVER transcend and would actively destroy anyone who tries to reach Transcendence. The Usurpers seem to regard the Manifolds as merely means of reaching Godhood, they don’t seem to care about Planet as a environment or being, so they don’t see any reason to communicate with it, just use it for transcendence. VoP doesn’t fit them, it seems.
Edenism doesn’t fit or doesn’t seem to fit the Progenitors. Edenism is the belief in re-creating Terra on Chiron though the means of terraformation, large-scale population growth and re-creation of the Earthly biosphere. There’s no evidence of the aliens ever having any interest in re-creating their native planets on Chiron. Marr needs Planet as it is so he and his faction turn into Gods, H’minee wants to keep Planet pristine and stop transcendence. That said, both factions (especially Usurpers) might see large-scale terraformation as necessary to achieve their goals IE grow a lot to crush their rivals.
Ascetic Virtues is all about leading a disciplined, concentrated life in a hostile environment. The Progenitors come from a ultra-advanced star-faring civilization, and their own Planetfall sent them something akin to one or two millennia of technological advancement behind. Essentially, it would be like if two small cities from 2012 were sent to 12 AD technological levels, and to make it worse they’ve just landed on a hostile virgin planet, with primitive aliens included. I could see Ascetism becoming a way of life as both factions labor on, dreaming and yearning of the day they would develop the technology to call reinforcements and get off that primitive rock, or alternatively, transcend and become gods in the Usurpers’ case.
Homo Superior is all about becoming better, either though trans-humanism, training or achieving a more rational and intelligent mind. The Usurpers seem pretty bent on becoming Gods though Transcendence, so trans-progenitorianism seems to fit them, but not the Caretakers. I don’t remember anything about the Caretakers that might make them more in-line with Homo Superior.
So, Caretakers seems to be Voice of Planet (but without Transcendence), Usurpers seems to fit Homo Superior, Ascetic Virtues seem to fit both and Edenism seems unfit to both except on matters of Terraforming? Should the religion of the Progenitors be fixed (like the Cult) or should their religion be flexible? Or they should follow no religion? You (or the players) decide.
Technology:
1. Am I the only one who thinks the tech-tree needs to be fattened and re-arranged? For example, Orbital Engineering, Needlejets and Secrets of Alpha Centauri are pretty near to each other on the tech tree. From Biofuels and Doctrine: Air Power to Needlejets there’s something like three or four technological advances.
The point is: The techtree seems weird, small and disjointed. Until the sixth row of technologies, it seems to be proceeding smoothly, then it goes crazy as we see Secrets of Alpha Centauri near Needlejets and Orbital Engineering after Secrets of Alpha Centauri, Gravships one tech after Needlejets, etc. Its like a big chunk of the mid-to-early end game of SMAC is missing. This is a big problem and I would suggest you to ask the Planetfall devs about it.
2. Alien-crossfire techs and such are missing, things like Adaptable Economics and stuff. Granted, not all SMAC/SMAX techs have to be copied to Planetfall/Conflict on Chiron, but there needs to be some equivalent to them and the things that come from the, at least. For example, there were a lot of buildings in SMAX that made sea colonies more interesting.
Others:
1. You know what this mod needs? EVENTS! SMAC had its own events to shake up the game. Remember? Hercules’s (Alpha Centauri B, the second star of the binary system) translation making the native life increase and then decrease; communication problems due to solar flare making factions incommunicable from time to time; viral infections breaking out, etcetera. You could add more, but the key is remaining faithful to feel of the original game.
2. I wonder if quests would fit the game. I like the idea of having to commit your faction to quests.
3. The abilities Accuracy and Heavy Artillery do the same thing. The only difference is that Accuracy can be used by Orbital units, whereas Heavy Artillery cannot. This makes it quite silly to build mass drivers and other similar units and see two abilities that do the same thing.
4. I never once saw Isles of the Deep transporting Mind Worms to attack me. As it is, they are just acting like visible, less predatorial Sealurks.
Suggestions:
1. Add economic victory. It was the ultimate peaceful builder strategy, and it would be very nice to see a remade economic victory in Conflict on Chiron. Wonder if any new twists could be brought from it.
2. Increasing the game time. As it is, in huge maps with lots of islands and water there’s no enough time for factions to fill out the map because the increase of the Flowering counter, combined with the onslaught of native life from the seas screw up with expansion. The fact the tech tree is weird and incomplete makes the way things go and advance very weird. I think 2800 or even 3000 MY would be a nice end-date.
3. Religions need some extra spice. Religion-specific buildings, Secret Projects, National Wonders and Units would improve the game immensely. Some suggestions taking the character of every religion in mind:
Voice of Planet: I’m thinking units that fight better in natural environments, using the natural terrain of planet to their advantage and employing methods that allow them to stimulate the growth of xenofungus (remember the missile from SMAX?), attract native life to certain areas and even recruiting (hidden nationality?) eco-terrorists to fight against planet-unfriendly factions.
Edenism: Units I’m unsure, perhaps units that help them against native life and planet-friendly factions. What kind of unit would help Edenist players to re-make Earth on Chiron? Buildings that help happiness, growth and productivity seem obvious here, perhaps more benefits to a eco-friendly yet anti-planet Edenist?. Edenism is all about re-making Earth on Chiron, growing and prospering on a newly-made Promised Land.
Homo Superior: Homo Superior could get some extra enhanced units and buildings that involve the use of technology and logic to create better soldiers, better pilots, better scientists, better EVERYTHING. Of course, there should be some sort of price to their struggle to create Better Everything, perhaps a over-reliance on expensive equipment and dangerous genetics. Homo Superior is all about people becoming better though study and technology.
Ascetic Virtues: Units in the form of cheaper, more easily replaceable units that allow one to live with meager yet more effective armies? Buildings that allow colonies to live in more hostile and meager conditions and make the population happier with less luxuries*? Essentially, Ascetic Virtues is all about doing more with less in order to survive.
4. More unique units and buildings. I’ve been playing Miriam and I think its very strange to see Miriam employing InVitros, Genejack factories and other science-horrors.
Also, I've done some changes in Unit Datalink entries, sending you the first ones as soon as possible.